MRT tells walkers to "Get some balls"

[MariaD]

http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/657/2/

I actually agree with the sentiment of this article. MR should not be an automatic resort simply because it's dark & people haven't bothered to learn how to read a map! MR are there for situations of dire need - unless you're injured or ill, you should be able to get yourself off the hill in most weathers, even if it means descending to a different valley or town.

[MariaD]

To put this in context, here's a list of this year's incidents from the Langdale MRT: http://www.lamrt.org.uk/

A quick glance shows the following:

Party reports themselves lost, despite having adequate shelter for the night (a tent). A search was organised, but they turned up in the morning having slept in the tent.
"Three climbers became cragfast when, surprise, surprise, it went dark!"
"A man and his partner phoned for help when they were unable to locate a path down from Harrison Stickle. This was despite being able to see clearly down to Stickle Tarn."
"A couple became lost and benighted when the went for a walk without a torch, whistle, compass or adequate clothing."
"Two men phoned to say they were stuck on Crinkle Crags, and that one of them was too tired to be able to descend un-assisted. They were able to give us a 10-figure grid reference, supplied by someone with a GPS, who was going in the wrong direction to help them off. We sent a couple of team members up to locate them, but before they got there the two had grown to six after they were joined by another lost party."...and numerous other incidents caused by the absence of a torch and/or a map.

One quote from when the clocks went back stands out: "Hopefully climbers all over the country, and walkers as well, will be checking batteries, or rushing out to the shops to buy head torches as the nights draw in. Here's hoping!"

[clunk]

your right maria , utter stupidity , when we were on ingleborough a few months ago and the cloud decended there were people wandering about aimlessley trying to find their way off the top , one person was even going to walk off the front :confused: untill i stopped him ,
i just got mi map and compass out and i knew exactly were i was going , and a few people asked if they could follow us down ,
even on the paths , they diddn't know were they were :eek:,
all i learned that day was stupidity knows no bounds and i was amazed how many stupid people there are out there
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
clunk

[Special_K]

Totally agree.

The problem is people have no idea in what skills are required during day(and night) to ensure safety on the hills. People also fail to appreciate that they need to forward think and plan for the inevitable.

'Fail to plan and plan to fail'

I don't know if the idea has been toyed with but maybe the MRT should think about charging people for being brought off the hills where no illness/injury exists? (Contreversial - thoughts please :p)

[MariaD]

There are certainly plenty of instances where there was no excuse whatsoever for calling out MRT - the Stickle Tarn example in my previous post is just awful! However, it's not always true that only the ill and injured should call MRT, as extreme weather can cause major problems for even well equipped, uninjured parties (as the sad case of the two lads caught in a winter storm in Coire An t-Sneachda last year showed). That's why I said "in most weathers".

I know that Slovenia operate a system whereby rescue is free unless you are deemed to be negligent, but there are problems with this idea. Who decides who should be charged for rescue? Also, if the possibility of being charged puts someone off calling MR when they genuinely need help, that would be a bad thing. People should be helped when necessary regardless of how they managed to get themselves into the situation.

I think the answer is better education & encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves so they don't just assume that someone will helicopter them off the hill when it gets a bit misty.

[ishepster]

I'm not the worlds most experienced mountaineer so excuse me if I'm talking rubbish but I never go anywhere without knowing where I am. Part of the enjoyment of the outdoors for me is translating what I can or can't see to what is on the map. In the past my mate has lost the plot as whenever we had one of those jaw dropping moments when we thought we'd died and gone to heaven, when the view brings tears to your eyes. The first thing I always do is reach for my map and see how it looks there. What I'm getting at is that when I decide to walk I get my map and before I've even decided where and how I know what I'll do if it goes a bit pea soup. Any change of planned route made automatically has an escape built in.

I can understand how injury or exhaustion could be an excuse for calling for help but not being lost.

Keep youreyes on the press I'm bound to get lost in ASDA's car park today and call Mountain Rescue.

[David]

Just my opinion on the subject, I'm a long time hiker, but not usually in the mountains.
"I never go anywhere without knowing where I am [...] Any change of planned route made automatically has an escape built in."
Though I'm sure you plan very thoroughly, I believe there's always a chance anyone can make a mistakes. Say you *are* in asda car park, I'd guess that we've all experienced someone talking to you, then when you look up you don't remember where you were going for a split second. I think a lapse of concentration (maybe unavoidable) can cause big mistakes for anyone on the mountains, even if it is rarer as you get more experienced. And when you get lost, you don't change the planned route, you change your actual route, so it doesn't matter how many alternative routes you built in to your planned one.

If I were to get lost of a mountain in the snow for a couple of hours, and all I had was a t-shirt and a bottle of water, then I'd probably consider calling 999. The difference is that I wouldn't go up without some suitable clothes, water and probably food (and whistle etc etc). I can't really blame people for getting completely lost any more that I can for tripping and breaking a leg; I think the problem is that people go out without expecting to sort it out for themselves when it does happen.

[ishepster]

You're right it is easy to get lost, I have myself, I was obviously a bit uptight about going to ASDA and went on a bit of a rant. I just enjoy the planning and map reading side of things.

[David]

Yeah, sure - don't worry; I realise that you were joking about the whole asda thing! I was just using that as an unrelated example - I probably should have said tesco carpark instead of confusing the issue! Only pointing out that mistakes are easy to make really.

[Marmot]

i can lose my car in a tescos car park quite easily

[wandering_fox]

I'm completely with you on the always checking on a map thing.

It's how I started walking - in the SW lowlands, where you have to use a map all the time, otherwise you really are lost. Many of my more serious walking friends don't understand this. They've always had access to, and only walked on repeatedly, more mountainous terrain. "you just go up, right?" :eek: and then they wonder how I always know which is the correct valley to descend into..... It's a badge of honour for them not to need or use a map at any stage during a walk (yes they do take one but really hate being forced to use it).

Thanks to all the MR people, for all their time and effort. Particularly those on call over the festive season.

[MariaD]

I'm not sure why people would refuse to get their map out as a badge of honour - how strange!

Their are some walks & areas that I know so well that I would never bother getting a map out, but most of the time the map is an aid to anjoyment. Being able to identify the interesting looking ridge in the distance (and mentally putting it on your list to do another day), checking what's in store later in the route - surely that's all part of the fun?

[Special_K]

I agree with Maria, being an inquisitive kind of guy I look and see something in the distance and wonder what is is called and mentally place it on my to do list. Indeed there are areas I feel like I know like the back of my hand but nature is nature and if you fail to prepare you prepare to fail.

On the flip side, I love it when I've stopped and am looking at my map be it to identify a feature, look at a more interesting route than I had planned etc and some helpful soul with just a GPS asks me if I am lost.

I love that people stereotype that if you are looking at your map you are lost.

Reiterate the above - I also have great respect for all the MRT's, Coastguard and RAF MRT/SaR Helo's who are on duty this time of year (and no doubt their busiest times)

[MariaD]

there are areas I feel like I know like the back of my hand but nature is nature and if you fail to prepare you prepare to fail

By that logic you shouldn't even walk through your local park without a map! I've covered this in a previous post:

For a short local stroll or jog (say Ilkley Moor, a very short distance from my house) I might take an apple and a small bottle of water. If I'm running I may not even bother with those.

I wouldn't take a showerproof jacket unless it was actually raining when I set off. I'd rarely, if ever, take a full waterproof. Half the time I wear jeans to go mushroom picking or strolling in the evening - it saves having to get changed!

I wouldn't take a map as it'd be totally redundant - like carrying an OS map to walk to the local post office or high street! I've walked every single path on Ilkley Moor dozens of times and I know it like the back of my hand. Shepherds don't carry a compass, but they don't get lost, do they?

When 'serious' walkers look at me they probably think I'm unprepared, but local knowledge goes a long way.

Do you think I'm "preparing to fail"?

[MariaD]

If I were to get lost of a mountain in the snow for a couple of hours, and all I had was a t-shirt and a bottle of water, then I'd probably consider calling 999....

I hope you'd do more than just consider, David! If you were in that situation, you should be getting on the phone pronto!

(Not that you ever would, but there you go)

[David]

Ha, absolutely, though as you can guess, hypothermia is a long term goal of mine. To prove what a rugged man I am. Oh yes!
On a slightly more serious but even more unrelated note - I didn't remember you said you went mushroom picking maria. That's awesome! Possibly I've asked about this before, my memory is so bad, sorry! I'd love to do it, but don't you worry you're going to pick up one of those 'super deadly' ones?

[MariaD]

I haven't been for ages, actually, but I only used to pick the 2 varieties that I definitely know that I can identify, and that aren't similar to any deadly ones. If in doubt, I leave it well alone.

Worth bearing in mind that some mushrooms listed as 'poisonous' won't actually kill you or make you ill, but instead have some, er..., entertaining side effects!

[Special_K]

By that logic you shouldn't even walk through your local park without a map! I've covered this in a previous post:



Do you think I'm "preparing to fail"?

Maybe my post was too vague. I am under no illusion that the people on here (along with the millions of others) who take part in outdoor activities and go through the process of risk assessment before they take part in activities are fine. You may not take a map Maria but I am sure you assessed that risk in your head.

My thought process be it due to working and thinking for teenager.... in fact stuff that thought.

What annoys me is when I go walking, not too remote to be honest but see people taking a walk onto the moors in just jeans and trainers just to see the pretty snow, and even take pushchairs too or even be heading up onto the hills in the same attire with the snow just starting again and the sun setting. I've seen this happen, these people concern me most and are the prime candidates for a MRT callout.

[MariaD]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it was all about risk assessment. If you have the skills & experience, you should know when it's appropriate to head out & what you should take with you when you go, depending on the conditions. It differs for everybody.

[Ant]

The MRT's annoyance is clearly understandable. It's a shame that so many people don't understand the risks of what they are undertaking. If you get injured or ill then fair enough, call them out, thats what they are there for.
If I'm planning on doing a bit of walking anywhere, I'll take a decent map, if I haven't got a decent map of that area, then I won't walk there.
I often carry a map of the local area, and look at it regually on my local walks. Locally I never have a planned route just a general direction. I often decide on the exact details of the route when out.

When out in other places, I'll have a GPS with me, but its only there for emergencies, I'd rather try to work out my location with the map and compass.. more fun that way too

[Malcolm L]

I once heard heard a chap taking the piss out of of someone using a gps on Kinder. Well maybe...just maybe..they were learning how to use it. You sure as hell don't want to wait until you are in a white out in Scotland before you get the instructions out.

I only ever use my gps to check grid references when my timing, map, compass and everything else has gone awry, and companions are pleading with me for mercy. Actually my favorite toy, defunct at the mo, is a pda with Memory Map on it. I was finishing the third of the three Yorkshire 3 peaks in winter, and I couldn't even see my feet at one point thanks to the fog and darkenss. I was tracking my position by looking at the little red circle on the illuminated map and could just see this tunnel of light from my head torch. It was a bit like deep sea diving. Half expected fish to start swimming by. No need for MR that night thank goodness.

[MariaD]

I'd say that Kinder is the ideal place to learn to navigate (or put skills into practice in bad weather). Broad, featureless plateaux like the one on Kinder are notorious navigation blackspots when visibility drops.

Actually, Kinder is so notorious for navigational problems that I'd assume that whoever was doing the pisstaking was an idiot!

[Special_K]

Actually my favorite toy, defunct at the mo, is a pda with Memory Map on it.

Exactly what I use to analyse my walks, not dusted it off this year but use MM on my PDA too, must admit I do like the extra detail you get with the visiblity of the OS map and red dot (and before people start the age old conversation ;) I still use my map, compass and EYES first). :D

[Special_K]

I'd say that Kinder is the ideal place to learn to navigate (or put skills into practice in bad weather). Broad, featureless plateaux like the one on Kinder are notorious navigation blackspots when visibility drops.

Actually, Kinder is so notorious for navigational problems that I'd assume that whoever was doing the pisstaking was an idiot!

Having Kinder on my doorstep is great. call me a sadist but some of my best walking days have been up there with the cloud down low and the rain coming sideway.

The fact that you have to concentrate on every minute detail and try and translate what the ground is telling me in relation to the map I find pushes my navigational skills that little more.

Probably my funniest moment up there was last year in a situation where the cloud was low and the rain was coming down some, my friend and I were walking on a compass bearing to a trig point (which could have been on the moon judging by the feeling of remoteness). We were making our way across the peat bogs and just ended up knee deep in one when a group of girl guides with two instructors came giggling out of the cloud.

As they made their way towards us and passed we highlighted which parts of the peat were soggy (obviously as we were up to the knees in it:D), said good morning and they went on their way. For just the pure randomness of the situation I was chuckling for about 5 mins, until we realised we were still knee deep.

[Marmot]

hypothermia is a long term goal of mine. To prove what a rugged man I am. Oh yes!

not worth it! give me a fluffy hot water bottle any day!

[David]

hehe, coming from the guy who invented 'leech tennis'

[insane_climber]

marmot, your getting soft

[Marmot]

with age comes early nights and pain killers

[Malcolm L]

Where is the ice pic taken insane climber? I'm off to Rjuken in a couple of weeks.

[Ollie]

Avatar discussion split to:
http://www.goxplore.net/showthread.php?t=1933

[insane_climber]

im not sure, its one from my uncles climbing club trips

[MariaD]

I should get a new avatar photo - this one's getting very old. The problem with outdoorsy photos though, is that normally I look like I've been dragged through a hedge backwards!

[Malcolm L]

You are way too concerned with your personal appearance Maria! What with fitted jackets and well groomed avatars. Some people like their women wild! Sorry,

[Malcolm L]

I drank too much coffee today.

[David]

lol

:confused:

[MariaD]

Not fitted jackets.... jackets that fit.

There's a difference!

[ishepster]

My jacket fitted before Christmas but I ate too much pudding.

[Malcolm L]

lol ---