fire structures

[aks]

was just reading the forum section on fire and different types and am curious i know the "tepee" style burns very bright, very hot and fast - but what strucrure do you build that you can leave over night (safely) and will be easy to build up in the morning?

[David]

I'd recommend the long fire (or any fire which uses few, large logs). Light a strong fire between two logs, then push them together. You can add a 3rd to make a pyramid (be careful that they can't roll apart if you do this though e.g. a little pit). If you look between the logs later you should see the fire is still burning bright white light between the logs, but little flames/heat are escaping for such a hot fire. If it is still flaming/glowing inside in the morning, poke lots of good kindling in there and blow to get it going. If it has 'gone out', roll back the logs and blow on the ashes. When you find a place that glows, uncover the embers, add dry kindling/tinder and blow until it lights.

If you can't get logs, you just have to make a big fire. Try not to put too much air space in, like there would be with a teepee, quite, but not throughout the fuel or loads of flame. If it's hot enough, there will be glowing embers under the ashes the next day. If you want heat all night long as well without big logs, then you're just going to need a massive fire unfortunately.

You don't need to continue the fire to benefit from it in the morning. Even if it is 'out', you have loads of dry, warm sticks, part charcoaled and warm-hot, dry, flammable (if there is charcoal remaining) ground to light your fire on. Hardwood generally makes embers and retains heat better than softwood. Using large logs also means that the fire is much more stable and safe than a structure of small sticks. If you use pine sticks, you can get a fire without smoke but don't expect any embers.

[aks]

ive used pine before as a long fire but even then it burnt through very quickly and i had to restart it twice. - may have laid it wrong..
by the way - is the long fire pretty good against light rain or is there a better structure? - didnt rain when i used it so have no experience of this.

[guru]

there's a fairly nice section on fires in 'bears' Born Survivour. Apart from a few os maps, and Knots and climbing guides it's the only 'outdoor' literature I own, so any recomendations are welcome!!!!

[David]

ive used pine before as a long fire but even then it burnt through very quickly and i had to restart it twice.

I don't expect you laid it wrong at all; actually that's exactly what I'd expect. As I said, you can expect softwoods like pine to burn hot, fast, with little smoke, lots of flame, and little ash/embers and so little retained heat. Basically it burns up completely and gives out lots of heat. It's to do with the stuff in the wood as well as density - why they make gunpowder out of softwood charcoal not hardwood. Hardwood is definitely the way to go for long burning fires.

About the rain; the long fire is pretty good. Adding another log on top makes it even better, since it's almost like a roof if you do it right, most rain will just run off the outside. The key to surviving rain is a fire with a hot core. A cool spread out fire won't survive as well as one with a hot core, like a long fire or burning charcoal for example.

[Digby]

My favourite fire - and one I build whenever I can - is made of three logs. Find yourself three logs a couple of feet long and the same diameter (about 6" is ideal). The logs don't need to be dry, in fact if they are damp, they will just burn slower. The great thing about this fire s that if you find a single fallen tree you can burn it into three lengths and you have enough fuel to keep it going for a couple of days.

To get it going, you start a small fire the size of a breakfast bowl. When it is going well, place the ENDS of the logs into the fire so that they point outwards at an angle of 120 degrees to each other. Keep them as close together as possible apart from the gap that faces the wind. Before long, the ends of all the logs will be alight. Gently tease them in until they meet together. As the fire burns the bottom of the logs first, the top bit tends to form a natural umbrella.

In the past I have found fuel for a fire like this within a few minutes of setting camp and then kept the fire alight for three days in constant rain. It's important to note that the fire is too small for cooking - but you can always pull the logs out and add fuel to make in into a cooking fire. The other good thing about this sort of fire is that it is very small and safe and so can be built a lot closer to your tent than others, so is ideal for keeping flying insects at bay (smudge fire).

[David]

Sounds like a really good method - does that type of fire have a name?

[Digby]

Sounds like a really good method - does that type of fire have a name?

Bert. ;)

[aks]

"....As the fire burns the bottom of the logs first, the top bit tends to form a natural umbrella"

simplest ideas are always the best :) but i dont think i would have ever have thought of that one - i'm gonna give that one a try soon !

[David]

Bert. ;)

Love it - that's official now!

[Special_K]

there's a fairly nice section on fires in 'bears' Born Survivour. Apart from a few os maps, and Knots and climbing guides it's the only 'outdoor' literature I own, so any recomendations are welcome!!!!

On books or fires??

Books I can help, fires I think the local chavs have more expertise than me.

For knowledge I can't fault my Langmuir (Actually called Mountiancraft and Leadership) and the bible as far as MLT are concerned.

For good read I like Joe Simspson and Andy Cave, think I'm going to tackle the White Spider as my next read (if I can manage to get work to calm down and put down my PRINCE2 book)

[Digby]

Love it - that's official now!

There is another one which is more useful and loads more fun, but not so easy - in fact entirely opportunistic unless you go lightweight backpacking with a 24" chainsaw and log splitters...

It was shown to me by an old friend called Derek Browne, who died a few years ago. He had been in the Marines during WWII and a lot of his training was carried out in Canada with native Canadians, in preparation for raiding in Norway (I think it was associated with Telemark, but he was not one of the small number who subsequently found fame by their bravery in attacking the Heavy Water plant). He had been captured and escaped from POW camp on New Years Eve (might have been Christmas eve), and survived just inside the Arctic circle for three weeks before contacting the Allies.

He showed me a fire he makes (when suitable timber is available) from a 600 cm slice of a tree trunk of similar circumferance. It is quite important that the ends are square, through you could probably improvise around it if you didn't have a chain saw or felling axe.

First split the wood down the middle vertically so you have equal sized sides. (Easier said than done, but there are several ways to do it - I am sure somebody will explain in a further post.

Make a small depression in the soil (not leaf litter, dummy).

Light a small (250-300 mm diameter), hot fire and burn it down to embers.

Push the logs together either side of the fire and ease them towards each other so that it looks like the log is still in one piece. It is very important to restrict the airflow. The fire then has two parts of the equation, fuel and heat, but lacks Oxygen, which makes it burn VERY slowly.

Keep pushing the logs together, until the gap is only a couple of mm wide.

Leave it for three to five hours (depending on the timber used and its dryness).


When you are ready to cook, ease the sides apart to about 50mm. You will find that both sides are covered in white ash. You can get very close to the fire with this structure, as there is very little convected heat. However, the amount of radiated heat is incredible: A piece of bread on a wood toasting stick (careful the wood is safe - not Yew), will be nicely tanned in ten seconds and ignite in 20. A fresh oily fish 'kebabed' will cook through in less than a minute. It is all to do with the amount of infra-red radiation the inside faces put out.

So if you see somebody slicing up a tree trunk ready to make it into logs, stop them and get ready for a summer bar-b-que treat!

I think this one should be called a 'Derek' - though he referred to it as his 'outdoor microwave'...

[David]

Oh - I think Ollie put a guides article up about this, but I didn't really 'get' it at the time. The article missed out the bit about only leaving a couple of mm, and I got the impression it was designed mainly to put pots and stuff on top of - but I can now see how it is really meant to work. It's a really ingenious idea, I can't wait to try this - it sounds like the perfect cooking fire. I've always had to make little walls to prevent the cringing that inevitably occurs when most people try to cook over an open fire (needless to say, not really a good solution).

unless you go lightweight backpacking with a 24" chainsaw and log splitters...

Aren't I allowed to use a wire saw and wooden wedges? ;)

[Ant]

Right, the microwave.... I think my dad can make one of them.... infact he did... when he used to work in sharp :p

[kyle-mcc]

what is the best fire for cooking on

[David]

I've never used it, but the one Digby suggested sounds excellent the 'outdoor microwave' or 'Derek' - being able to cook your food without cooking yourself and your tools is really useful. Over a standard open fire though, it's best two ways; either use a good quantity of hardwood chunks and let it burn down, or constantly feed small amounts of dry softwood. Heat with little flames or smoke is the way to go. There are loads of different ways and tricks of cooking on an open fire though - a good fire is one thing, but campfire cooking knowledge is important too.

[kyle-mcc]

thank you for the help

[Anand]

In case thick logs is not an option you could make a pit, about a foot deep. Just build your basic fire and when you go sleeping, add some new wood and then cover the pit with sand. The sand will limit the amount of oxygen and starve the fire somewhat, slowing the burning when you wake up open the pit and add more wood, in most cases it will still be warm/glowing. Worst case scenario is that it totally starved and you ended up with a bucket of charcoal, but that is pretty easy to get going or even transport some for the next fire.

[David]

No problem, it's nice for someone to be interested :)

[dasy2k1]

the fire refered to here as "Bert" is called a star fire and can be made with 3, 4, 5 or more logs

its also a good fire to cook on as you can rest a pot on top the triangle formed by the logs

for cooking however i would normally use a T shaped or Keyhole fire
the top of the T having a flaming fire to generate embers that are then scraped into the longer leg to provide a deep bed of embers,
a thick slow burning log is placed either side of the leg of the T to stand pots on

[newtrekker]

for different fires in different conditions i use a little sas survival book, its small so can fit in your rucksack easily good little book!
isbn 978-0-00-718330-2
or ray mears "outdoor survival handbook"
isbn 0-09-187886-1
if that helps