'Helping' wild tribes

[Emanresu]

The boxing day Tsunami brought to my notice that there are still islands in the Indian Ocean that have tribes that are virtually untouched by 'civilisation.

Do GoXplore members think it is possible to 'help' them without in some way taking the unwanted effects of civilisation with them?

[Marmot]

yer, stay away from them

[Tim Dawlan]

I think that it is our obligation as members of the western world to educate these people in the way of democracy (unless they already have it like the Iriqous (Spelling?) who had a sort of representative Republic which inspired Ben Franklin and he wanted to have a similar thing as a model for the American government but it never ended up like that).

[Marmot]

But why do they need to be "educated" into a democracy?
If they needed to change they would have changed, theyve have 100s of year to work out what is best for them.
Ive seen "democracy" at its best, and its worse, who says its any better then any other polictical system?

[Tim Dawlan]

It is fundamentally better because it empowers the populus. They have not had hundreds of years to work out what is best for them they have had hundreds of years of isolation to work out what is best for them. All cultures that have developed have done so under the influence of competing neighbouring cultures. The idea that just because they live in that way and have done so for hundreds of years does not make it a good idea and regardless of everyones perspectives on the matter some stuff that goes on is just plain weird (like the practise by one tribe wherein boys must fellate the elders in order to achieve manhood I mean what the heck?).

[Marmot]

But that only seems odd to us because of our culture is different, to them its perfectly normal and not doing so seems odd. Its just our perspective. Just because we have the power to enforce our way of life does not mean that we should!

And I'll point out that if we were to enforce democracy on other cultures, i think we had better get our own one sorted first. I dont know what survivaldon's view point is, but i know my girlfriends American aunty and unlce who lived over here never recieved their postal votes, nor dd many american ex pats because it was rumoured that Bush knew that the English vote would be against him. Hows that democracy for you?

I will point out that Hitler was elected democraticly - maybe his tactics were a bit underhand (to say the least) but he still got voted in.

And how can u enforce democracy? - Surely democracy is about choice?

[David]

I have to say that a small community based on individual relationships if far better that the uniform treatment that a macroscopic govournment system gives. Personally, tribal living is an ideal organisational structure from my point of view. In tribes and on small islands, there is very little crime as a general rule. In fact, as a whole the community tends to get on far better in every way in a closed system. The only reason we have needed democracy is because we have needed a large society to protect ourselves from external problems (war etc - small communities would have no defence) and to advance technology. In the small island communities which have been mentioned, it is extremely unlikely they will be invaded and are probably happy with their current way of life. Why impose a system designed for mass administration on just a few people? After all you and your friends dont 'vote' on where to go next when you are out and about - you just come to an agreement.

[Tim Dawlan]

Liberal capitalist democracy is the world's only proven means of advancement any other attempt at a societal form has inevitably resulted in a society that does not make progress I mean I guess they might not want progress but it is possible that they would be happier if they had iPods and other gadgets of modern living I mean Tuvalu has done pretty well for itself I know it was not exactly like this before but it was still technologically backwards and fairly isolated they made a lot of money from the internet and used they to buy instruments of progress like roads though their island is sinking and they will only have a few decades to enjoy them which is a shame but they should be congratulated for embracing the capitalist ideal.

[Marmot]

How is a democratic community going to be able to then increase their wealth?
Im sad to say that i doubt that there is not a single community which hasnt had any contact with the outside "advanced" world. If they had wanted to join it, they would have done. Infact many have fought and died to avoid it.
There are many native cultures which have been killed by our society. Why on earth would they want to join it.
Im talking about the communities being burdered as crop dusters full of chemicals sprayed lethal toxins over them so that the ground that they lived on could be turned into famr land
In brazil alone 27 tribes were wiped out at the beggining of the century - by the advanced western culture.

Im glad im not on the outside being pissed on, but i feel ashamed to be on the inside pissing out.

[Tim Dawlan]

Democracy increases their wealth because it creates a societal construct within which capitalism can flourish.

[Marmot]

Look at mexico, 50 percent of the country’s population exists below the poverty line, 20 percent in extreme poverty. At the other extreme, the top 10 percent receives 30 percent of the nation’s income, and controls over 40 percent of its wealth.
Good old democracy at work

[Tim Dawlan]

Not really the fact that Mexico is poor is not necessarily related to it being a democracy at all.

[Marmot]

Oh no, mexico isnt poor, it holds many multibillionairs. It shows the polarisation of wealth. Democracy is just an idea, in some places it works, sometimes to the advantage of the country. Cuba is communist - that works for there. We cant go around converting people to our way of life because we feel its better. America's already tried that, both in korea and vietnam. It didnt work.

[Tim Dawlan]

Of course Mexico is poor, a country's wealth is not best measured by the wealth of its richest citizens.

And democracy is more than an idea, it is a framework. There are essentially 6 "modes" of society: tribal, dictatorial, feudal, democratic, socialist and communist. Each of these obviously has subdevisions and what have you. Basically though, Democratic societies, specifically Liberal Democratic societies such as those found in Western Europe, North America and South East Asia (as well as Australia, New Zealand and increasingly so in Eastern Europe as well) have made huge leaps and bounds in terms of technology and economy. Why?

Firstly, only democracy can effectively support capitalism. Any system where the government is not in the hands of the people cannot truly place the economy in the hands of the people. The exchange of capital can happen, sure, but a sophisticated economic model can only exist when not planned or directly overseen by the state. In each of the other models, trade is merely a function of necessity or dictatorial impetus. Necessity fails to breed excess, and without excess there is rarely innovation. Dictatorial impetus fails as there is no place for competition. Once again innovation is stifled.

With Liberal Democracies the control of the economy is placed in the hands of the private citizen. Each of the other systems lack this in some way (tribal: not much economy to speak of, dictatorial: dictator ultimately in control of economy, feudal: economy in the hands of aristocrats, socialist: in the hands of the state, communist: well... this one's never really happened), thus all the other systems lack the impetus to develop and improve that liberal democracy encourages. When the economy is in private hands, citizens will seek to outdo each other, simply because it is necessary to sell whatever they're gunning to sell.

As a result Democracies tend to undergo industrialisation and have a lot of capital to throw around. Innovation and development are signficantly more rapid, they are symtomatic of the freedom that democracy grants its citizens.

As for Korea and Vietnam: it may not have worked at the time, but South Korea and Vietnam are both now capitalist democracies.

[Scott]

Who are we to try and enforce our culture and way of life on others? You might find that many native cultures strive to keep away from western society, they have seen what it can lead to and it terrifies them, and I don't blame em. We should leave them alone and let them get on with their lives in the way they believe in, not try to impinge on their lifestyles just because we think ours is better and everyone must want to be like us.

[Tim Dawlan]

"Who are we to try and enforce our culture and way of life on others?"

We're the First World. The most advanced and developed piece of mankind. We're big, we're rich, we're better educated and we by and large hold the opinion that our societal construct is better than everyone elses.

Why should we not force our culture on them? Is there any good reason why we shouldn't? They don't want it sure, but several generations down the line their descendants will wonder how they ever lived without it.

[Marmot]

The same way that the past generations have been able to live without the then modern technological adavances.
They have the choice, as we have stated earlier many cultures have actively shunned the new world. Generations down the line may want what we have. And it will still be available to them without us forcing it upon them.

Native americans had their culture forcibly removed from them, and still many generations donw the line wish they could return to their old way of life.

[Scott]

Because we DO NOT have the right, Tim Dawlan. We may have the means to do so, but that doesn't justify doing it. As has been repeatedly said and yet you seem to totally disregard it, many cultures CHOOSE to keep away from the modern world and it would be a very sad day if they decided to embrace western culture and we lose those skills of self dependence and survival using the natural world that these "wild tribes" as you refer to them, use to survive.

[Digby]

Well you may not agree with each other, but it's great to see a younger generation having opinions and holding intelligent debate. While discussion of this standard exists between people who are not even at voting age, I have high hopes for the future.

Keep it up!

(and be continue to be nice to each other... :) )

[Tim Dawlan]

Because we DO NOT have the right, Tim Dawlan. We may have the means to do so, but that doesn't justify doing it. As has been repeatedly said and yet you seem to totally disregard it, many cultures CHOOSE to keep away from the modern world and it would be a very sad day if they decided to embrace western culture and we lose those skills of self dependence and survival using the natural world that these "wild tribes" as you refer to them, use to survive.

Firstly, I never referred to them as wild tribes.

Second, yeah I agree actually, and have no viable response to your argument. I just love playing Devil's Advocate. I can't help it.

[Ollie]

We're the First World. The most advanced and developed piece of mankind. We're big, we're rich, we're better educated and we by and large hold the opinion that our societal construct is better than everyone elses.

In my opinion, the only reason we see this capitalist world as 'better' is because it's the one we're used to. It has lots of advantages, but, just like all the others, it has it's advantages. We have to work to earn money to eat. We are entirely dependant on other people. If a small group of people were left alone, it would take months, possibly years, to adjust and to learn how to grow and harvest food, to build shelter, and to learn how to defend against any predator. On that side of things, I'm jealous of their independance.

[David]

It allways seems kind of poiniant, when you see someone from the west bring simple toys to a tribe, and the way the children stare in wonder at simple things, like bubbles from 'bubble mixture' , kites etc. If a child from a civilised country saw those things they wouldn't be appreciated at all. To those tribes we live in a world where amazing things are normal, but if you brought them to civilization I'm sure they'd get used to it after a while. I guess it just means you never appreciate it, no matter what you've got.